The following is a full transcript from Maneesh Joshi and Mohan Udyavar's presentation at ebizQ's recent
SOA in Action conference earlier this fall. (Archived presentation available here.)
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In this session, we're going to be talking about How to Use SOA to Maximize Your IT Budget in a Down Economy. Our speakers are Maneesh Joshi, Senior Group Manager of Product Marketing for Oracle and Mohan Udyavar, Enterprise Architect for Wipro Technologies. There's also a short video at the end. Now, I'd like to turn the program over to Maneesh. Well.
Maneesh Joshi: Thanks Beth. Welcome to this session. Today, I'm going to discuss strategies for IT leaders for maximizing their IT budgets especially in these uncertain economy times. I will then be followed by my esteemed colleague, Mohan Udyavar, who will be discussing the case study from an SOA at North American's automaker.
IT has fueled ingredically economy growth over the past few decades. Research has shown that this economy growth was mainly due to productivity gains and IT has a large part to do with it. In the late 90's, internet fueled amazing business growth. Businesses grew, there were to reach out to customers that were not in physical proximity of themselves. They're able to do business with other entities over the internet.
That was followed by a bust in the economy and that's when these businesses started looking inwards, started doing some introspection. As part of this introspection, they figure that there was a lot of for improving their business process efficiencies and that's when concepts like Service Oriented Architecture, Event Driven Architecture, have gained momentum. Although in the past few months, the economy news hasn't been all that great and things are slowing down.
But in the rest of the presentation, I'm going to make a case for IT that this is an incredible opportunity to make an even bigger impact on your business. Productivity has three key drivers: cost, efficiency and innovation. Cost is has traditionally been the largest biller when it comes to IT. Management has consistently expected IT to minimize cost while maximizing output. To be fair to IT, I think they have done a phenomenal job when it comes to efficiencies.
Business efficiencies has grown and that's where productivity has improved and so has the bottom line for businesses. Technology advances in the hardware and the software level also has aided IT efficiency. The last but the often-ignored one is innovation, which is the key driver of productivity, especially during these tough economy times. Cost and efficiency have become more of a focal area as well innovation has been ignored.
I'll talk about innovation later in the presentation in a bit more detail. Rather than preaching to the choir about cost control and improved efficiencies, I'm going to take some very interesting examples from Oracles customers who have successfully implemented SOA solutions, and achieved a significant cost control, and include efficiency. Let's look at the first example of cost control, Verizon Wireless, a very well recognized brand. They have a very complex legacy application to detect fraud.
Billions and billions of raw data was getting that needed to be scanned to identity threshold violations. These threshold violations were typically in the thousands and then needed further scanning to raise a few hundred alarms. As part of this automation, they replaced a legacy system with Oracle SOA Suites, BPEL Process Manager, and Oracle Solution.
The BPEL Process Manager was able to access the pillars of data sitting within Verizon mediated by Oracle , which significantly reduced the data access time. They were able to bring down the response time of the entire application from minutes during the legacy period down to under a second. Not only that, there was a dramatic hardware downsizing on their part. There were able to reduce the equipment size from 12,000 lbs. down to a mere 300 lbs. There were also able to reduce the number of processors used to crunch all this data from 200 down to just four processors.
Originally, their power consumption went down by almost 1 by 20 times. The other interesting example is that of Apollo Group how they improved their internal efficiency. Apollo Group is simply corporation that provide higher education to working adults through its subsidiaries. Now, from the time they admit the students until the point where the first day of class, they need to process all the student loan applications within this four-month period.
Conditions for loan eligibility is very, very complex and they needed to automate their existing manual processes. Not only that, to add to that pain, Congress has recently changed the eligibility where students making 120,000 students eligible for loans. On top of that, they have already implemented multiple ERP applications in-house such as Oracle, PeopleSoft and Oracle E-Business Suite. What they did was they Oracle SOA Suite to automate the entire business process.
They isolated the business aspect of the process from the execution level and kept it very modular making changing of rules as dictated by Congress very simple without trying to bring down the entire system. There's also very impressive they're able to evaluate all the students before the deadline and from there able to certify another 50,000 students proving them millions of dollars of financial assistance. And last but not the least; they were able to achieve 600% ROI. Six hundred percent ROI is the same -- in a four-month time frame.
Now, IT has traditionally been looked at as a cost driver driving -- lowering cost, improving efficiencies but there was very interesting study by the economist a few years ago where they interviewed - a lot of about 300 C-Level executives across the world. It was interesting that the C-Level executives that are expecting more out of their IT.
In fact, they wanted their IT to be an enabler of revenue growth rather than just pure unlimited to driving cost and efficiency. Not only that, there's a wide gap between the C-Level executives expectations on the IT compared to the IT manager. The C-Level executives expected a lot more in terms of innovation, in terms of improving revenues from IT than the IT managers themselves had.
Another interesting study that will help you understand the criticality of IT is a McKinsey Study, which talks about managing IT in a downturn. What they've concluded is that companies should use this and instead of cutting down IT investment they should do targeted investments which will in the long run when the expansion time comes will help companies to grow their savings but also support their competition.
Another interesting study, which will help bolster my case here is that of McKinsey having studies more than 1,000 companies from the period of 1982 to 1999. And what they found were the companies that emerged, as leaders out of recession were the ones who had invested the most in their infrastructure during the recessionary period. So instead of just holding cash and cutting down cost, they were actually innovating - they were actually investing in the infrastructure and getting themselves for the boom times.
Now, having made case for why it's critical to invest now, and how expectations from IT are increasing, lets first review the third driver of productivity of within IT. There's a couple of ways you can ignore it. One is through process innovation and the other one is inorganic innovation, which is typically through mergers and acquisitions. Now again, instead of drilling down into the details of how one can innovate, I would like to discuss a couple of very interesting examples.
The first example I have here is the Australian Vintage Ltd. It's the leading producer of wine in Australia. And they had a very manual and supply chain process, which was very hard to get into. To solve that problem, they implemented Oracle SOA Suite, specifically the BPEL Process Manager and the Business Activity Monitoring component to not only automate the entire supply chain but also get real time visibility into the process.
Because of implementing BAM, they're able to optimize their entire supply chain on a real time basis. Not only that, the interesting outcome of this exercise was that they were trying to partner with a company called Tesco who wanted to do business with companies that had green wine. Now, green wine is not a green colored wine but a definition of a green wine is that which has offset its carbon footprint as part of that developed production shipment of the wine. So from creative dashboards that Australian Vintage Ltd created, they were able to show to Tesco that their wines were indeed green wines and did win that customer contract.
The other interesting example is off our own Oracle Corporation. We've had some phenomenal growth over the past five years. We've done more than $30+ billion acquisitions. Now, not only have we acquired these companies, but we've done a phenomenal job of incorporating these companies into Oracle's fold. We've used Oracle Fusion Middleware and Oracle's SOA Suites to quickly integrate these different applications from the acquired companies and be able to get a 360-degree review of the customer, the sales data and the product.
And because of this 360-degree review, we are able to response to the market more quickly. We're able to detect new markets a lot easily. Not only have we shown significant revenue growth from 10 billion to 23 billion, but we also maintain our operations margins at 37%. Now, what are the three things I want IT leaders to walk away with is a) focus on innovation. But not only that, there's a three-step process you can actually do today when you walk away from this presentation.
A) I want you to go and access and priority your SOA roadmap. This is the time to take a hard look at the projects that are struggling. This may not be the best time to rescue those struggling projects unless they're absolutely critical to your business. It is time to put the ones that are not providing instant value on the back burner. It is time to reallocate those funds to more successful projects, and move them forward, and show value after your management. In short, reduce the skill and scope of your implementation to the ones that give you the most ROI.
Now Step 2, you need to identify the most critical business processes that can give you instant ROI. Now, how do you go about identifying those critical processes? These are the processes that are smallest and most efficient. You definitively don't won't to bite more than you can chew. You also want to highlight views and modinerizate their existing assets, which shows that you are adding a lot more value with incremental work. Or thirdly, you should aid process innovation and show a growth through your company.
With all the data from Step 2, you need to also take the economy study that we discussed and the McKinsey Study that I presented and make a business case out of it. Go back to your management; highlight the innovation aspect of IT. Talk about how this is the time to invest in IT so that you can get leadership role, you can play a leader's role in your industry when the boom times come.
Not only that, you also want to highlight the hidden cost of not implementing SOA, which is misallocation of resources, use of productivity and so on and so forth. So this is the time to talk about how C-Level executives expect a lot more out of IT and this time to step up to the plate. So with that, Now, I'm going to hand it to my esteemed colleague, Mohan Udyavar. Thank you. Thank you for listening.
Mohan Udyavar: Thank you, Maneesh. Hello everyone. I am Mohan Udyavar, Enterprise Architect with Wipro Technologies. I lead a team of architects in an Integration Competency Center large automaker based out of Detroit. Today, the topic of my presentation is Why SOA Makes More Sense in an Economy Downturn and it's a continuation to what Maneesh had eluded before. And I'll also touch upon SOA implementation as this large automaker to support the case.
I'll start off with an introduction of Wipro. Wipro is a leading IT services company. It has revenue of $4.5 billion, and it has 743 clients worldwide and it has some 92,000 employees all over the globe. It is a leading research and development services provider. It has other service offerings in the area of enterprise applications, package application implementation. Even in the area of product engineering services and consulting. Wipro has Middleware Competency Center is one of those COE that Wipro runs for the customers and it has a 250 Fusion Middleware Consultant who work out of these competency centers and support the customers.
This competency centers has a lab by which customers can extend their innovation lab out to the Wipro COE Lab, and try out the Oracle Fusion Middleware , and take it back into the organization when they see a lot of value in using the product. The Oracle Fusion Middleware Competency Center also works hand-in-hand with Oracle to create partner of process integration facts. But there is some code development also happening from this COE.
Next, I would like to touch on a SOA Implementation Case Study from the automaker based out of Detroit. Let me start off with what I see on the ground when I talk to the executives on the ground. What do I see? I see that the CIOs or the CXOs are trying to reduce operational costs. I think this is something that Maneesh has already touched upon. So what is the driver for SOA if you take this particular find of reduction and operational costs?
What we're trying to say is when we reduce operational costs - when we need to reduce operational costs, we have to look at our business process. We have to optimize our business processes, we have to reduce the losses that are prevalent in the business processes, that might be some integration, there might be sort of manual activities and we might be losing out a lot of revenue in that business process. So this might be the time to look at those businesses and see how to improve the business process productivity.
The second thing, which we can look at, is - that's improving productivity of the Sustain Team that is managing the system within the enterprise. So how do we improve the productivity of the Sustain Team? How can we reduce the headcount and the resources that we spend sustaining the existing systems that we have? If the tool can provide us functionality by which it can autocorrect our , some of the business processes and we can actually reduce the efforts that we spent in the sustain of these systems which will in turn reduce the operational costs.
Now, the other pattern that we see that enterprises are looking at is looking at SAAS or BPEL to reduce the cost. When we do that, what happens is there's still integration requirements to the core system, the core enterprise systems and that still needs to be done and has to be standardized and loosely coupled, and hence, SOA plays again an important role in that. So it has a very, very - SOA has a very important role to play in reducing the operational cost of an enterprise.
The second point that CIOs would look at - cost - they don't have money so they have to do more for less so they have to react fast to the change in the market trend and be ahead of the curve, be ahead of the competitors. Those enterprise may not have enough money. They have used that money very efficiently to make quick decision changes. To do that, their business processes should be agile and they should be able to add new functionality into the business process without adding too much cost or development cost into it. So that is one thing.
The second thing is with the need for a business activity monitoring. That is a big strategy within the enterprise, which gives them an ear, an intelligence or data aggregator. But what we need is a real-time intelligence that's the process that are executing so that it can react faster in this economic downturn. Again, a SOA driver, SOA fits in very well in addressing these concerns.
The third find which CIOs are looking at increasing sales by breaking into new markets for their products. They might look at new emerging markets like China, India, Brazil, and other countries. So if they're going into the emerging markets, they don't want to start out their business processes from scratch, they want to have some shrink-wrap business processes and then plug-in the local business services so that they can quickly operate in this new market. They don't want to spend a lot of money on that and that's again the strength of a SOA implementation.
The next point, which we could look at, is the mergers and acquisitions, which is something, which has become a norm in such a economy condition. And in this kind of mergers and acquisitions, the challenges you face is the diverse business processes or the diverse technologies and the cultures, which have to come together. And again, you have the SOA benefit, which you can leverage in these kind of requests. So these were some of the key drivers in a weak -- SOA drivers in a weak economy, which still underlines the fact that Maneesh was making is that it still makes sense to look at SOA to come out of this downturn as a leader.
Now let me touch on this case study where this large automaker tried to outsource their B2C Portal. The B2C portal outsourcing had two benefits: One is can reduce cost and the second thing is the outsourced vender being a leader the portal development will give the leading edge portal implementation. So the outsourcing of the B2C Portal is basically giving a customer a single view of single view of all the information that he requires like the diagnostic of his car, the dealer from where he parked the car. If he has a credit card with the company, he gives the credit information; he gets any recall information, everything in a single view.
And that kind of a view basically attracts the customer and then we can always add campaigns and promotions on top on it. So this kind of a view is provided through this B2C Portal. But this B2C Portal in itself just presents the content but the content in itself is the thing within the enterprise, in the core system. The challenges this information is not sitting in one system within the enterprise. It is sitting in many systems and it's also in different business units within this enterprise. So that's where the Oracle BPEL Process Manager plays a very important role.
We basically created a hub within the enterprise, which orchestrates all the information in real-time and aggregates this content and provides the service to this portal. So Oracle's BPEL Process Manager involves these services in parallel all the services and it has to do it parallel because it's a real-time rendering of the data within the portal so it cannot take more than five or six seconds to render the page so it has to build a content in a very fast fashion. So it has to also implement timeouts in case there are providers who are not able to keep up to the SLAs.
There has to be timeouts and the content has to be altered accordingly. So all those things - all those rules have to be implemented within the Oracle BPEL Process Manager. Also, we also use the Oracle Web Services Manager for securing these services to make sure that only the authorized people are accessing these services. These services were built for internal consumption possibly. And when it is exposed to an outside portal, there has to be a check and balance put into the system in the process so that only authorized people are able to see this information and that's where OWSM, the Oracle Web Services Manager plays a very important role.
And this other component that you see, that was implement is Oracle Enterprise Manager, which was used to manager this whole SOA Ecosystem. The Oracle Enterprise Manager provides quality of service monitoring of this SOA Ecosystem. It also provides capabilities to diagnosis a problem, application diagnostics that it provides. It shortens the time to debug and resolve a problem at real-time. It also has an management pack by which we can deploy components into this container, make sure that the are managed correctly and it can be compared with the pre-production environment. So those are the benefits that Oracle Enterprise Manager gives to the Sustain Team. It's a single view for the whole SOA Ecosystem.
Now this platform that you see it's not a runoff platform of runoff solution to one problem. This is a platform. This is a platform on which the other business processes are also going to be built so it is an evolving of a kind of implementation and it provides you with the flexibility to add new business services as needed. And new services can be mashed up very quickly without spending too much money and effort building on other environments for this.
So too small. I would recommend that you could use the zoom button to go into the detail of the text. What are the challenges that I alluded to in my previous slide? One was basically the information of the owner was spread across multiple systems and multiple business units. So that's one of the challenges. It has to be retrieved at real-time and all the availability requirements have to be stringent like four nines, 99.9999 and the availability of availability has to be achieved. And there are legacy business services which have been built like three or four years back which were built on the - which are done on WSI compliant are built on the REST methodology.
So those have to be plugged in into the existing - into those and then orchestrated. And there are also other challenges basically the time-to-market. This kind - this have to be implemented within three months so that they could provide a leading edge solution to their owners or the customers. So it was the time-to-market was very important in this particular implementation. The solution, what made SOA - this particular SOA implementation successful was the Oracle SOA Suites.
The Oracle SOA Suite actually provided with minimal coding. There is no coding involved. There's more and ruled based decision-making. We could quickly mashup this service. We had to mashup service and invoke these services in the backend. So this basically is traditional J2E development in this enterprise. If they had gone through that traditional J2E development part, it would have taken close to a year to get implemented application. And what we saw is that if use a tool like BPEL, Oracle BPEL Process Manager, we are able to do that in three to four months we were able to implement it so kind of this orchestration. There's a lot of productivity improvement in using this tool.
The other thing that you can see is after the development, when it is being sustained, the kind of - the Oracle Enterprise Manager capability as mentioned - as I mentioned earlier it provides a lot of productivity gain for the Sustain Team. It provides proactive alerts, if SLA is not met, it provides reports, provides reports, it alerts on if they are out of sync. All those things are providing a lot of productivity improvement as you see. It provides 10% productivity improvement to the operations and the Sustain Team.
Now, they are also thinking of using the - provisioning pack which is Oracle Enterprise Manager. The provisioning pack is basically to automate the deployment of the artifact or deployment - deployment of the middleware suite or even the OS. It can start from OS all the way up to the service artifact. If these automations are implemented, then the whole provisioning can be down by 60%.
It is a huge reduction because right now all the implementation, all this provisioning is done manually and installed and used to guide. It takes three to four weeks to install a particular environment. This should be done in a matter of hours after the provisioning part is done.
And the other gain that we get out of this is extendibility. If you add a new customer information like I was explaining if you want to add campaigns or any other promotions to this, it is more ruled based and based. It could be - new services could be involved and the data could be mashed up so quickly in this that it could be get at least 50% reduction on the development time from a typical J2E kind of application if you go ahead and change this implementation.
There's a lot of productivity improvement change time to. So SOA - and the last point is about how do you leverage your existing investment? You have existing investment, existing services, there are REST based, there are non-compliant, can the tool help you to leverage those are you hard to ? Are you had to realize that?
So Oracle Process Manager basically help us leverage these investments. It helps us use binding and use these non-WSI compliance services or the REST services easily and plug it into this whole orchestration. So that also counts in savings of cost for the implementation. So what's the road ahead? As I said, one of them is that this is a platform. It is built once and it's in a horizontally scalable end of a platform. It can be leveraged by the whole enterprise so that you can build more and more orchestration on top of it. a lot of services on top of it. That's the good part of it.
And then, I think, what enterprises should do in this downturn is to do a lot of introspection and fine-tuning the key business processes. So there are products like Oracle's Business Process Architect or the BPM, Business Process Management Suite, which is a good tool to basically document a business processes and do the analysis and create and optimize the business process. And this is all done within the tool in a collaborative fashion. And once this collaboration is done and you find these are the key business processes, this is how it should work.
All business can collaborate doing this and then when they are ready, when there are funds available they can easily take these business processes and import them into the Oracle BPEL Process Manager so the investment - whatever investment they're doing its not lost, it's taken into the next level of implementation and it will provide much, much more. It's like if it is 40% now productivity improvement, the productivity improvement can go up to 60% because the business process is already - the skeleton process is already available. It can go up to 60% improvement.
So these things we can look at in this downturn. The next thing what we hear every time is the top down approach. If you take a top down approach to SOA, its' very slow and it's very expensive to do the top down approach. So people -- what the CIOs do is they try to avoid doing too much of the top down approach. The other alternative to that to that is to look at how to this top down approach.
And to this top down approach is you can look at the process integration content that you get like the process integration pack from the application integration architecture of Oracle, which is very good starting point. It's a jumping board to start your top down approach instead of starting everything from scratch. So that's another -- another area of the enterprises other business can look at to save costs.
And the third thing is always the bottom up approach. You can take the bottom up approach, slowly build your core services bottom up, build a on top of it and slowly try to realize your end vision and the tool -- the Oracle SOA Suite help you doing that too. So that's last pointed I wanted to mention. So that's all I have today to discuss on this topic. I would like to hand over the control to Maneesh to take it forward. Thank you.
Maneesh Joshi: Thank you Mohan that was a great presentation on how your client was able to achieve efficiency gains and improve productivity using the Oracle SOA Suite. Now audience, let's listen to a few more customer testimonials in this video. Thank you for attending the session.
Testimonial 1: At Qualcomm, Oracle's SOA superior ownership experience has been very important. We've actually cut the amount of time and resources that we need to manage the Oracle environment for changes, for patches, upgrades by half. Oracle has really listened to what we've needed in order to bring our costs of supporting at a very complex system way down.
Testimonial 2: We really need to manage our costs. And in the upgrade that we recently did, we really were able to do that without incurring significant cost. And we used the software, the development tools to develop applications really easy to use.
Testimonial 3: We've identified certain cost savings that we didn't realize we'd have using GRC Manager. And one of them is with our external auditors. What happened in the past was they would need documents and what we did early on whenever they asked us for things; we forced them to use the tool. So after about three weeks of asking and us not giving, they went directly to the tool and that has saved considerable amount of time. Going down the road, some of the new enhancements to the tool, logical apps, things like that are going to help us reduced the amount of manual testing we do and; therefore, I see a savings down the road as well.
Beth Gold-Bernstein: And now it's time for your questions. I'd like to remind you to ask a question, please press the "Ask A Question" button. But before we go to your first question, we have a question for you. What are your biggest challenges related to implementing SOA? Please take a moment to ask the poll and we'll be right back. So Maneesh, what do you think is the single most important thing companies should invest in during this downturn?
Maneesh Joshi: I think that's a great question, Beth, and we've seen fairly good times in the past few years. We've invested in a lot of technology, different kind of applications, even SOA applications. But now is the time to take a look at how those investments are doing what kind of returns they're giving. Now, SOA is a great tool that gives you the flexibility to quickly bring these different investments together and add value on top of those investments.
So what my recommendation would be to take a look at all your legacy applications, package applications, custom applications, even your SOA applications and see if there are to extend these applications or tie them together and create business valued. So in my mind, I think that's the first thing I would recommend for IT leaders to address.
Beth Gold-Bernstein: Okay. So Mohan, what are you seeing your clients doing?
Mohan Udyavar: That's what I see at the customer locations is they are looking at the SOA implementation at an enterprise level so that it is no redundancy at the process area or business unit level and they are building a platform for SOA using Oracle SOA Suite to build platform and to build around this SOA platform.
So that enables the projects to implement their orchestration or their SOA implementation faster and costs down cost. Another thing that they are doing is they're looking at their governance processes and making them identified. Common services across projects and anywhere they would have spent a lot of money building redundant services so they are trying to cut down costs by doing it one on this platform.
Beth Gold-Bernstein: Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So once again, I'd like to remind our audience to submit a question, press the "Ask A Question" button. And once again, I'm going to up the ante. Well, submit your questions for an opportunity to win either SOA Adoption for Dummies, Service Oriented or Be Doomed, or Service Oriented Architecture Getting It Right. You can also win those books either buy visiting the Networking Lounge and joining a forum, submitting a comment or question there, or visiting all the booths. And also be sure to attend to all our sessions.
All the sessions are available for archive viewing so pass them along to your colleagues and we will be giving away a block set for one person who visits all the booths. So now, I'd like to once again get to our next question. We just have a few moments left. What do you see is the most significant obstacle or problem companies are facing when they begin their SOA journey and how do you help them over it. So Mohan, I'll first ask you and then Maneesh I'll ask you to chime in on that.
Mohan Udyavar: I think the biggest obstacle you can see in the enterprise is identifying the services. I think that is the biggest obstacle and the second thing is showing a ROI to the executives going the SOA away. they are having a solution and then trying to sell the solution. I think the approach should be to look at the problem statement and see how SOA can help. So I think the return on investment is I think the main obstacle I see --
Beth Gold-Bernstein: Okay.
Mohan Udyavar: -- in enterprises.
Maneesh Joshi: And I would like to add to that. I feel like people -- corporations think that SOA is just cookie cutter where you can apply to any and every problem in your enterprise. What my recommendation is to really understand the basics or fundamentals of SOA. It's just more of a paradigm and there's a lot of products like Oracle SOA Suite which helps you address those business problems in the most service oriented way.
So it's important to a) understand the problem, b) start at a smaller scale. Don't try to solve the entire problem or all set of problems thinking that SOA is the solution. You have to apply the SOA paradigm as and when necessary. The other thing is when you start smallest and important to keep the SOA governance in mind because after a certain threshold, there's going to be one too many services. It's going to be hard to manage all those and that's when following the right best practices, using the right governance tools will really help you scale up much quicker and much faster and maintain that kind of ROI in spite of the size of the project.
Beth Gold-Bernstein: Okay. We have one last quick question. We're running out of time. So Maneesh, this person asks can I use BPEL Process Manager with Open Source Tools and what is the approximate investment cost on the Oracle Tool?
Maneesh Joshi: It's not clear when you say with Open Source Tool. Are these tools the Design Time Tools or are we talking about interoperative with BPEL? And what I'm going to do is I'm going to address both of them. So in terms of BPEL Process Oracle, BPEL Process Manager and interoperating with all these products out there. As long as their standards compliant, Oracle BPEL Process Manager will definitely interoperate with them.
The other way of looking at it is Oracle BPEL -- the definition of the process is 100% compliant with the standard. So if you have a tool, which helps you design BPEL processes using the BPEL standard, you should be in good stead to define your BPEL processes with those tools. But Oracle on top of that has a lot of value add a lot of extensions to the BPEL process. Based on our experiences from our customers, so I would strongly recommend you take a look at what Oracle has to offer.
Beth Gold-Bernstein: Okay. Now, I apologize, we are out of time for questions. I just want to share the results of our poll. Hopefully, this is showing up here. Then there is a wide range of issues people are having management not convinced SOA is Mohan was saying that ROI is really important and complexity that's really an obstacle as well. I'd like to invite you all now to enter the Oracle booth.
Be sure to visit all the booths for an opportunity to win a book. We have a number of copies of books there and we are going to be rewarding them. We are going to contact you afterwards. Be sure to join us at one o'clock for our next keynote when Randy Heffner of Forrester is going to be talking about a "Business Foundation for the Digital Age and How SOA is Relevant." So I hope you all enjoy the day. Thanks for joining us now.
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